This isn't meant as an attack on the guy (or gal... but one can probably assume). I rather enjoy the debate and I don't have a problem with someone having a different opinion, even if that opinion seems veiled, to some degree, in motives we can't entirely confirm.
First off... "Ronny" didn't throw this out initially but when challenged claimed that he had played 5 years of Major Junior and had coached at that level. I don't have any way of knowing whether this is true or not but let's assume that it is. I'd have a few questions.
- Why are you commenting mostly-anonymously on a teams fan blog? I have no affiliation with the team and I'm most certainly not "part of the problem" because I have exactly zero control or influence over what the team does.
- Why won't you identify yourself? Why are you hiding behind a keyboard? Are you still looking for a job at the WHL level? Why would you care what the Thunderbirds think if you are critical of what they are doing?
- Lastly... and this offer still stands... why not email me privately? I feel as though I've been pretty civil in this entire discussion and at least I can give you proper credit for your level of expertise. People contact me privately about the blog all the time and I've never put anyone on blast.
My guess is that you are neither of these things... and thus none of these questions will ever get answered. And that's fine. I'm certainly curious to know who you are but I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it.
Secondly...
Here is why I still think you're wrong.
Your argument is based on the theory that Barzal has been "given" ice-time and has been anointed as the golden child from the beginning and that this "culture" has made Barzal a cancer in the locker room and is slowly killing the team.
If this is true, shouldn't this have been true in the first 16 games of the season as well as the last 5?
Your argument is based on the theory that playing time should be earned, not given and that players on the team must be unhappy playing in Seattle because the 16 year old "phenom" isn't really a phenom and he is being handed the "keys". That he has been given his hype by a consortium of people from the Seattle organization all the way back to his midget and bantam days and that everyone, including myself, has bought into the hype.
I hope I have the argument right. I'm really trying not to exaggerate this thing. You believe that good organizations like Portland and Calgary stick their 16s on the 4th line and let them develop and that Barzal should be installed on the 4th line simply by his age and that the veterans on this team have earned their way.
The problem is... your argument eats itself. You're telling us that playing time shouldn't be given to Barzal and that playing time has to be earned yet you're literally giving ice-time to veteran players based on how old they are. You would say that the veterans on this team have "earned their place on the team" and thus ice time. More on that in a minute.
Players, regardless of their age, should have to earn playing time. Barzal has been benched, Delnov has been benched, Elliot has been benched... just to name a few.
I may not agree with everything Coach Konowalchuk has done but to an outsider he clearly isn't "giving" playing time to anyone.
Playing time should be earned in practice and on the ice regardless of how old you are. Your "winning culture" defines playing older players regardless of whether they have earned it or not.
What has the current roster done to earn their playing time besides have a birthday each year?
Let's run down the roster real quick:
McKechnie - Like his game... but hasn't been here and thus has to earn his ice time.
Elliot - Been here for 5 seasons and has 29 points in 271 games while being a Thunderbird during the worst teams in franchise history. Has to earn his ice time.
Eansor - 1st season and lately has played as well as anyone and has earned his additional minutes. Or is he just being given those minutes?
Hickman - Captain, works hard, probably has earned some benefit of the doubt.
Troock - Hurt constantly, hasn't earned anything.
Gropp - Talented, hasn't been here. Needs to earn ice time.
Barzal - Needs to earn ice time and I believe he has and when he hasn't he's been benched.
Honey - Has earned his playing time in my book.
Yakubowski - Same as McKechnie, like his game... still has to earn it.
Swenson - Has earned it to an extent. Still has to go out and show it and he mostly does.
Delnov - Disappears at times and was -33 last year. Still needs to earn it.
Kolesar - Needs to earn it.
Lipsbergs - I'd put him in the Hickman and Honey group. Has mostly earned it.
Holub - Needs to earn it.
The only guys in my book who have previously earned some benefit of the doubt is Honey, Hickman and Lipsbergs.
Look... I don't go to practice, I don't sit in the locker room. I don't "know" who has earned playing time and who hasn't but unless you're going to tell me who you are and your name is Tyler Alos and you're telling me that you watch practice every day as well... I'm going to tell you that based on what I've seen on the ice, Barzal has earned his ice time as much as anyone else has.
I'm not willing to hand ice time to veterans who have lost a vast majority of their games with this franchise in the past 3-4 years.
Ice time is earned. Not given based on age.
You said so yourself.
Program Note: I'm taking a bit of a break from the team tonight. No tweets and I'm probably going to pass on watching the game. I need a bit of a mental break from the team and maybe that will bring them a win tonight.
21 comments :
Can you put up a weekend game thread so if we have comments on the games we have a place to post.
(don't know if you want us posting on this thread)
You got it. Will post later today.
And you definitely can comment on this. I may not respond but I opened comments up again. Any and all can have at it.
Well said Tyler. Hopefully the boys decide to play tonight and shake off this funk they have been in. If they aren't chomping at the bit to get on the ice and hit someone after all that has gone wrong lately something is seriously wrong with them.
Waaay too many breaths being wasted on a guy that doesn't get it. I agree that players need to earn their ice time. But when we would be keeping a rookie on the bench and making him earn it while giving it to a veteran who is underperforming, it defeats the purpose. Hey, somebody needs to be out there on the top line and right now no one deserves it. Time to move on, bigger fish to fry and Ronny is a loser even if he did once coach major junior. I am more interested in the bigger stories.The idea that Farwell is biased toward 'his guys' continues to grow as Elliot continues to hold an OA Spot, basically 'player hugging' a guy who is popular within the front office and with billets and boosters, or apparently moreso than Forsberg or Benoit. Also, is everyone ok with having a guy who draws this many major penalties and an overall hothead wearing the C and being the face of leadership? Having a hard time with that one. Good blog, can't wait until it returns to focusing on the talent level of the players that we are icing and less about Ronny attacking the comments.
Don't worry. It will.
Thunnex said >>>> I turned comment registration on because I wanted to see if "Ronny" had enough guts to register himself before making a comment. Clearly he didn't.
??? Not sure what this has to "guts"? Why *would* I register myself to post on your blog? Frankly, I don't care that much about it. If I'm at the machine have some time to kill and may or may not read it. I almost never comment on it and I certainly wouldn't if it took any more effort than it already does.
Thunnex said >>>> Why are you commenting mostly-anonymously on a teams fan blog?
Why *wouldn't* I be commenting mostly-annonymously on a fan blog? I don't know any of the other commenters and I don't care who they are. I wouldn't expect them to post personal information about themselves on an internet chat board just to share an opinion on a hockey team. Seems a little drastic. If you don't want anonymous comments, then turn them off. I don't care one way or the other.
Thunnex said >>>> Why won't you identify yourself?
Why *would* I identify myself? For what purpose? Just curious ... What would I, or anyone, have to gain from posting personal information on an internet chat board amongst a bunch of other anonymous commenters? That doesn't seem prudent or neccessary. It's not a job application. It's a fricken fan blog/forum for christ sake.
Thunnex said >>>> Why are you hiding behind a keyboard?
Hiding? Yeah ... again ... not to beat a dead horse ... I don't see any reason I need to share personal information just to express an opinion on a hockey team. I must say though, ever since I posted my opinion, folks have been more interested in attacking the messenger than the message. So I can see why there is a persistent request for personal information. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass on that.
Thunnex said >>>> Are you still looking for a job at the WHL level?
Again. Fairly personal information. I didn't know I needed to fill out an application to hold an opinion.
Thunnex said >>>> Why would you care what the Thunderbirds think if you are critical of what they are doing?
I never said I did care what the Thunderbirds thought of my opinion. I am sure they don't care.
Thunnex said >>>> why not email me privately?
Again, why *would* I email you privately. I'm not looking for anything from you. I don't need anything from you. I don't want anything from you.
Look, you posted an article and ended it with "I don't know what else to say. This team is in a death spiral and I honestly have no idea what will bring them out of it." At the end of the article it had a comment section, so I used your comment section to give you an idea of what would bring them out of it. A simple blueprint that all good follow, creating a CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY with earned ice time. The idea was so radical to you and some of your readers (which should be telling in itself) that no one dared question the concept, but instead attack the messenger, even going to the great lengths you've outlined. Interesting.
I do note that you've finally made an attempt to counterpoint though, and I will happily address your counter points in a second post (this one has reached the limit).
Thunnex said >>>> Your argument is based on the theory that Barzal has been "given" ice-time and has been anointed as the golden child from the beginning
That's not a theory. That is a FACT. He started top 6 and 1st line PP and has never left. That's a 16 year old rookie straight out of midget hockey and ushered in like he was an import in his ddraft year or a returning vet.
Thunnex said >>>> If this is true, (slowly killing the team) shouldn't this have been true in the first 16 games of the season as well as the last 5?
You've answered your own question to some degree. The key is "slowly". There is always a honeymoon period at the beginning of the season and all players have a high degree of tolerance at the beginning as they see how the roster is being handled by the coaches. It's not uncommon to try a few things as they settle the lines. Ideally they have a look at the new guys in different roles and then they settle them on the lower lines and move forward.
Thunnex said >>>> Your argument is based on the theory that playing time should be earned
That's not a theory. That's a FACT. Any coach in this league (or any other) will tell you the same thing. They don't always take their own medicine and sometimes they are handcuffed by their superiors.
Thunnex said >>>> players on the team must be unhappy playing in Seattle because the 16 year old "phenom" isn't really a phenom and he is being handed the "keys". That he has been given his hype by a consortium of people from the Seattle organization all the way back to his midget and bantam days and that everyone, including myself, has bought into the hype.
That's a 4 different thoughts. 1.) He may or may not be a "phenom". That remains to be seen. He isn't the best forward in his age group. He's no Connor McDavid. He's no RNH. I think that's undisputed. I hope we can agree on that at least. 2.) He has been "handed the keys", meaning, ushered into a top 6 spot. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. 3.) I never said the players are unhappy playing in Seattle because of that. I said IT SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE. Of late ALL players are playing with no accountability; like their is no consequence for lazy/sloppy play. That's because by-and-large, there isn't. Benching someone for a period doesn't mean squat. Scratch him for a game, or two or three. Party of the lack of accountability on this team stems directly from the message sent at the outset that one player is above the team and won't have to pay his dues like the rest. 4.) He absolutely has been hyped to the limit dating all the way back to his bantam and midget days. Again, that's a fact.
Thunnex said >>>> You believe that good organizations like Portland and Calgary stick their 16s on the 4th line and let them develop and that Barzal should be installed on the 4th line simply by his age and that the veterans on this team have earned their way.
What I said was good organizations START their 16 year old rookies on the lower lines and DEVELOP them slowly. Make sure they learn the systems. Make sure they know what it is to be scratched. Make them hungry for ice time. Let them watch and learn from the vets. As they develop and pay their dues you bring them in slowly. That's a winning recipe and creates a CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, as opposed to the current CULTURE OF ENTITLEMENT
Thunnex said >>>> The problem is... your argument eats itself. You're telling us that playing time shouldn't be given to Barzal and that playing time has to be earned yet you're literally giving ice-time to veteran players based on how old they are.
No. I didn't say ice time shouldn't be given to Barzal, or any player. It should be earned. Given as earned (see below). 16 year old rookies should START on the lower lines and spend time there DEVELOPING and earning their way up. Veteran players should start where their talents are appropriate within the first 3 lines and they also can EARN more ice, or, EARN less. We made a big mistake by starting the inexperienced (NO EXPERIENCE) 16 year old rookie ahead of 2 and 3 year experienced veterans.
Thunnex said >>>> You would say that the veterans on this team have "earned their place on the team" and thus ice time.
To start the season, the bigger roles on a team are alloted to veterans, so they can lead by example. We have many 19 and 20 year old veterans who can and should fill these rolls.
Thunnex said >>>> I may not agree with everything Coach Konowalchuk has done but to an outsider he clearly isn't "giving" playing time to anyone.
Absolutely he is. He annointed a 16 year old rookie without a shift of experience as a top 6 player in the Western Hockey League. He did so at the expense of his more experienced veterans. That's how he started the season. That's the wrong message. Benching a 16 year old for a period is a slap on the wrist. A 16 year old worthy of a benching is worthy of a scratch.
Thunnex said >>>> Your "winning culture" defines playing older players regardless of whether they have earned it or not.
No. Veterans are veterans. There is a clear distinction between veterans (of any age) and rookies fresh from midget. There is a big difference between an experienced 17 or 18 year old rookie who already has time in at Junior A, or in the NTDP or the elite leagues across the pond or even a D1 recruit. It's common for those guys to be lumped in with the vets. But there is a clear distinction in Major Juniors between veterans (and older established recruits) and rookies fresh out of midget. A Winning Culture demands that all team members pay the price. For example, in this league - across the board - rookies load the bus. Even Barzal helps load the bus. That's part of being a rookie in this league. All players share that experience, regardless of team. It's a price rookies pay. That's an example of players paying the same price. Championship teams go a step further. They install a CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY. Jake Virtanen, for example, a first overall pick just like Barzal, wasn't ushered into a top 6 spot. He paid his dues on the lower lines and in the stands. Even though his draft position and associated hype was loftier than his team mates, Kisio didn't allow that to become a cancer on the team. He sent the message that no one is bigger than the team. That EVERYONE pays the price. That everyone must spend time developing. That every second of ice is earned. You don't EARN ice in a single game or a single week or a single month. Teams who RUSH their 16 year rookies, Lethbridge, Prince George, Vancouver, now Moose Jaw ... it bites them in the ass. It doesn't work. Teams who spend time DEVELOPING rookies, Portland, Calgary, Edmonton ... those teams have sustained success. You can blah, blah all you want about recruiting violations in Portland, but the fact remains when it comes to running a team - Gerrry Davidson knows what a CULTURE OF WINNING is all about. So does Mike Johnson. Farwell doesn't get it.
Thunnex said >>>> What has the current roster done to earn their playing time besides have a birthday each year?
Your top 6 goal scorers on this team are Delnov, Lipsberg, Troock, Swenson, Hickman and Honey (I include Honey on ppg). Some pretty good setup men in that mix as well. Your top 6 forwards also happen to be pretty experienced guys. They are all 19 and 20, so you have experience upfront leading the way and they also happen to be the 6 best goal scorers. It's a natural top 6. You have to really stretch to take out a 19 or 20 year old goal scorer and replace him with a 16 year old rookie who averages 1 goal every 7 games. Now you pick up a 32 goal man in Yakubwski and the Canes other top scorer from last year, Mcecknie. Now you have 8 legitimate 19 and 20 year old scorers, plus you have (had) the 2012-13 WHL hardest working man Eric Benoit and you have arguably the leagues toughest player in 20 year old Mitch Elliot. Are you trying to tell me that you can't put together 3 veteran lines with this group? If so, I'm guessing you are a Rob Ford relative.
Delnov-Hickman-Troock
Lipsbergs-Swenson-Honey
Eliott-Mcechnie-Yakubowski
Gropp-Barzal-Holub
Look how easy that was ....
Thunnex said >>>> Look... I don't go to practice, I don't sit in the locker room. I don't "know" who has earned playing time and who hasn't
You don't need to go to practice every day to know that we started on the wrong foot. If you take a 16 year rookie - any 16 year old rookie - and usher him in as a vet from game 1 you are sending the wrong message. Period. You are building a CULTURE OF ENTITLEMENT and that, as was proved in Prince george and Lethbridge, is a recipe for the disaster we are seeing now. That's what we have done.
Thunnex said >>>> I'm not willing to hand ice time to veterans who have lost a vast majority of their games with this franchise in the past 3-4 years.
Fine. Then cut them. Whichever vets you keep, those are the guys who are charged with setting the example for the young guys. For building the culture. But they cannot be expected to lead from behind. You always start your veterans in leadership positions and go from there. We did it backwards and we are going backwards as a result.
Thunnex said >>>> Ice time is earned. Not given based on age.
Yes. EARNED. You don't earn ice in 1 game, or 1 week or even 1 month. You cannot even start to earn ice until you have 1.) learned all the systems, 2.) learned what it it's like to be scratched, 3.) learned what it is to play the lower lines. The first prepares you and the latter two will allow a player to appreciate his ice time and to respect the rolls of the 4th/5th liners. IT'S A PROCESS. So it cannot be said that Barzal has EARNED even a second of ice until he has paid the same price that all his team mates payed - and they ALL did.
Wow, after the above generalized rebuttal. I just want to say if no one else wants to be Barzal's agent, I'll take a chance on him.
I can't believe I am going to give Ronny the time of day, but here it goes. My fundamental beef with your opinion (and you certainly are entitled to an opinion) is how do you KNOW Barzal has not earned his spot? You are looking at game stats and age and that is it. I am pretty sure more goes into those decisions, especially earlier in the season. Things like oh I don't know how he plays in practice day in and day out, which you admit you do not watch. There are so many things about the team that none of us know, especially when it comes to what goes on in the locker room. I think you have made your opinion known loud and clear; thanks for sharing - can we move on now?
As for me, I think Coach actually nailed it on the head last night after the game. I think the problem is lack of confidence. Those top scores that you listed, yeah they don't have a lot of experience winning and winning consistently with this team and those are the veterans, the leaders. I think they have the parts to do well this year, how well hinges on this incredibly tough division, but they can use that to makes themselves better. I think it will come.
Tyler and Jon thanks for your time and energy on this blog
Trolls are the worst. Ronny, become a winterhawks fan. PLEASE?
So wait a minute Ronny...
You said in another post that ty Rattie earned is ice time because of his stint as a 15 y/o but here you are saying a rookie cannot pay his dues with only one month of playing the lower lines ....
Which one is it?
(to finish the Rattie example ...I believe that he started playing in his 16 y/o year on October 7th because of injuries, not because he did not "earn" it ....unless you can prove otherwise )
btw your lineup is cute
and yeah is is easy to write a lineup, does not mean it makes sense.
-The combination of Troock and Delnov is not a good idea (we have seen that last year, and since you see every tbird game you should have seen that too)
-Swenson is certainly not a great candidate at center, especially with his time on the PK
-You realize that Honey and Holub are injured right? You could not even bother to make up a lineup with healthy playrs available? I guess its tougher than you thought.
-please tell me who is a better better available passer than Barzal. I guess you could make an argument for Honey (I would not) but I don't see anyone else.
Anonymous 8:33 said ... " I think you have made your opinion known loud and clear; thanks for sharing - can we move on now? "
Who's *WE*? You got a mouse in your pocket? You are perfectly free to move on whenever you like. I didn't force you to click through to these comments.
On the other hand, was I asked to comment here? Well, in fact, Thunnex wrote this article asking me the above 20-some questions. I have extended the courtesy of answering his questions.
You are certainly not obligated to participate.
As for Mr. Tell,
I really don't know where to start with you. You seem to know nothing about hockey or the WHL or culture or the players or anything ... you're the same guy who threw out the names of a bunch of 17/18 year old imports and want to compare them to 16 year old rookies out of midget. I can't help you sir. Clearly you just don't get it. I'll pass on your desperate attempts to join a higher dialogue. Maybe someone else will take you up on it.
Wow. The "keyboard cowboy" defense? Really? That's a last resort attack when you can't win an argument with reason. Ironic that it's done in a post titled "Ad Hominem" , as it's a variation of exactly that type of attack on character.
Kind of akin to the school bully who says "Oh yeah, you wanna go?" when he is losing a reasoned argument
LOL
I guess Ronny's well stated observations have brought out the worst in some.
Also seems like the T-Birds are listening, and at least trying Ronny's approach. Hope it works. We could use a turnaround. If a culture of accountability is what is needed, then let's get it installed pronto!
Tyler, are you really suggesting that posting with ones Google Account raises ones credibility?
Here's a few of your posters who have done just that. Please click on through and tell me what it is about this account that lends credibility to their post
Grover Cleveland
http://www.blogger.com/profile/18057303321479508239
Is it because he chosen a presidential name with which to post under? Because now that's we've added to his overall profile.
The WB
http://www.blogger.com/profile/04925903154807987568
We don't even get a name with this one. "Ronny" is a more telling handle than "The WB" with an empty Google account
Kodi
http://www.blogger.com/profile/12530094650260889519
The only other insight we have here is that Kodi follows another Thunderbirds blog besides this one. Shocking.
Mr Tell13
http://www.blogger.com/profile/13706265045018584883
This is the most "telling", and it doesn't reveal much. He lives in Washington State. Wooooooo, a T-Bird fan in Washington State? Really? And he's in Eengineering. Ok, so what?
I'm not sure how much "guts" it took for these posters to Google up to the same level of anonymity. That really seems like a hollow argument for you to make.
Frankly, what difference does it make if Ronny is Don Cherry or a fricken popcorn vender at Showare. The fact is he has hit the nail dead on the head and anyone who understands how teams are built can see that.
Some of the posters on this board wondering about the defense when the culture is in shambles is a bit like worrying about a leaky faucet when the house is on fire.
If anyone "should" put their name out there, it's the person being compensated for this blog. It makes sense that Tyler would declare who he is if he's proud of his work. While not full time job income, those ads are paying something.
Speaking of having pride in your work, calling someone out for poor writing skills in the comments section is quite disingenuous considering what you allow Jon to write. He couldn't even be bothered to spell Wardley's name correctly three times the other day. He often has errors in his writing, yet no one has enough pride to edit his entries. He doesn't nor does the blog's owner.
It takes "guts" to open a Google Account? What kind of nerd rumble did I stumble into here? Thankfully I brought my pencil protector LOL
What's really happened here is Ronny has touched on a nerve. We all wanted to believe the savior had come, but the last 10 games have shown that he is what he is; a very good 16 year old rookie. Nothing more. Nothing less. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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