This was brought up in a comment on another post, but I wanted to move it to its own entry to open it up for discussion.
I must have a totally different definition of goon than most. To me, a goon is a player who does cheap shots, and when they are on the ice, they are looking to fight, and get into players faces after the whistle.
I can tell you from watching Mitch Elliot play for 4 years now, and also talking to him off the ice, that that is the last thing he is. Does he fight? Of course he does. At his size, if he didn't, everyone would say he is soft and doesn't use his size. Does he go looking for a fight when he is on the ice. Not a chance. If one comes to him, or one is needed, he is the first to answer the bell.
Is Mitch a first line scoring machine? No. Ask him, and he will tell you the same. Does Mitch fit a roll on this team? I would say yes, others say no, and everyone can have a great discussion about it.
Mine turns into what a 20 year old spot should be. Of course there is your top end forward or defender capable of dominating a game (aka, Gregg Scott, Aaron Gagnon, Brendan Dillon). But then there are your quiet behind the scenes, work your ass off, do whatever the coaches want and ask, and be an example in locker room, on the ice, and off the ice.
Every year, Farwell has gone out and traded for a former captain that fits this role. This year, I am not sure he has too. If we had a top end 20 year old forward, he (or she, not to be sexist), would take ice time away from someone. Now maybe we don't care about that, because on the ice it looks good. But then who is the tough guy when you need it? If it is Wardley, do you really want him in the box for 5 minutes, and add a 10 if the instigator? If it is Forsberg, see the same question I just asked for Wardley? If it is someone else, then who?
Am I saying Elliot is the best 20 for this team? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think Mitch fits a valuable role on this team (protecting Barzal)? Yes I do. Do I think we should keep him if we could find a 20 year old goalie that puts us into the WHL final? Well, that might be a totally different discussion we can have.
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16 comments :
To me, what you describe is a pest, a ken Linseman type guy (don't know what would be the equivalent in WHL terms). When I read people refering to Elliot as a goon, I saw it more as a enforcer. IMO. And yeah, if you are comparing Elliot to a pest type player, he doesn't fit the bill.
As an enforcer though, he has to bring more to the table. Even if he is a good fighter in this league, he is not seen the same way Doty was. And as much as I that he does all the little things right, I am sure that out there there is someone that would fight as much as needed AND have a decent output. Travis Toomey had 137PIM while putting up 39pts. Chis Cloud and Devon Leblanc both had over 130PIM while putting up 30pts.
Even Doty playing a full season in Med Hat managed 28pts (while not getting nearly as much PIM since everyone is afraid of him)
Could he be useful, maybe, but he would have to had some major improvements to his game. He would need to become a wall in front of the opposing net and be an efficient checking forward. There is time to evaluate that thought.
But if you want to keep him for the sole reason that you can sit him in the penalty box for the 10 minutes misconduct .....might as well upgrade
You mentioned Travis Toomey, and so I went an looked up his stats from that season. Out of 137PM, 25 were fights. He had a total of 5 fights. I will try and look up the other two mentioned.
October 9th, 6-3 win over Chilliwack
3 - SEA T. Toomey, 7:03 - Slashing, 2 min
3 - SEA T. Toomey, 7:03 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - CWK B. Manning, 7:03 - Instigator, 2 min
3 - CWK B. Manning, 7:03 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - CWK B. Manning, 7:03 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
December 1, 3-2 loss to Kelowna
2 - SEA T. Toomey, 19:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - KEL C. Jobke, 19:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 22nd, 5-1 loss to Portland
3 - SEA T. Toomey, 15:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - POR J. Morrow, 15:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 28th, 7-0 loss to Everett
3 - SEA T. Toomey, 16:14 - Elbowing, 2 min
3 - SEA T. Toomey, 16:14 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - EVT C. Cumiskey, 16:14 - Interference, 2 min
3 - EVT C. Cumiskey, 16:14 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
February 13th, 3-1 win over Spokane
1 - SPO D. Kramer, 15:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA T. Toomey, 15:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
I sort of feel uncomfortable with the topic here because it singles out what seems to be criticism of a single player. This isnt an attack on Elliot, its about defining roles on a roster. I must say that its an odd event when I agree with every word of a Mr Tell comment, but I couldn't say it any better than he did in his remarks. in the recent past we have seen good situational players who aren't necessarily the big number players..Toomey being one. And what about those stellar penalty killers like Sanvido and Lund? Neither made it to the overage roster.Elliot does not have Toomey's scoring production nor does he stand out on the penalty kill. He is a 5 minute major kind of player and I dont see how that piece fits when there are holes in the roster like have as of now.
And? How many of the rest are 2 minutes for roughing?
He might not have dropped the gloves as much (which is kind of smart the other guy is not really willing) but he pretty much was always ready to defend his goalie or a teammates.
And for the others, by a rough estimate of the PIM for each games, Leblanc and Cloud had a fighting major about 15 times in 08-09.
Elliot, if you compare to Tommey, had last year more "lazy" penalties (interference, tripping and such). I also thing there is a point last year where he was not fighting at the right time. (example:10-05-12 vs Kamloops....fighting at 18:45 when you are loosing 7-2)
So the role that Elliot is filling is needed on the team, but unless he adds to his output somehow, I would rather have a youger guy doing it (even if a less experience kid might be a liability) and free up the 20 spot
(IMO)
Mr Tell13, I wanted to point out that you have very valid points in what you are saying. That is why I love this sort of thing. Two people seeing two different sides of a topic.
On the Tommey stats, I was curious about it, that was why I posted it. Wasn't really meant to show he wasn't what you were saying. I actually liked Toomey. Cloud and Leblanc, wasn't such a fan. But that is just me.
I just looked up LeBlanc.
136 PM, 65 PM from fights (13 fights). That was a lot more then I expected from him.
September 20, 2008, 2-0 loss to PG
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 18:46 - Instigator, 2 min (PP)
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 18:46 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 18:46 - Game Misconduct, 10 min
3 - P.G C. Scherger, 18:46 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
October 12, 2008, 2-1 loss to Chilliwack
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 16:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - CWK M. Meropoulis, 16:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
October 18, 2008, 3-2 loss to Kelowna
1 - KEL M. Callahan, 13:21 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 13:21 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
October 25, 2008, 5-2 win over Everett
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 11:33 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - EVT G. Potuer, 9:33 - Instigator, 2 min
1 - EVT G. Potuer, 9:33 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - EVT G. Potuer, 9:33 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
November 1, 2008, 5-4 loss to Tri
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 7:04 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - T.C M. McColm, 7:04 - Instigator, 2 min (PP)
1 - T.C M. McColm, 7:04 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - T.C M. McColm, 7:04 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
November 28, 2008, 4-1 win over Kootenay
3 - KTN D. Czerwonka, 18:18 - Roughing, 2 min (PP)
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 18:18 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
December 7, 2008 , 4-1 loss to Calgary
2 - CAL A. Plante, 5:48 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 5:48 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 3, 2009, 4-3 win over Everett
1 - EVT J. Mistelbacher, 9:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 9:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 17, 2009, 3-1 win over Everett
1 - EVT C. Abney, 7:08 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 7:08 - Roughing, 2 min (PP)
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 7:08 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 28, 2009, 3-2 loss to Kamloops
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 9:20 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - KAM J. Caron, 9:20 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
February 7, 2009, 7-1 loss to Tri
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 10:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - T.C R. McIntosh, 10:37 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
March 1, 2009, 2-1 loss to Everett
1 - EVT T. Ellington, 10:38 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 10:38 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
March 6, 2009, 4-2 loss to Tri
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 9:10 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - T.C M. McColm, 9:10 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
I loved watching LeBlanc fight, take off the lid, push the hair back, now I'm ready to go . . .
I think anyone who seriously thinks Elliot is a goon is insane. Just because a guy fights and/or has a lot of PIMs doesn't make him a goon. While Elliot doesn't score a lot I think he is pretty responsible defensively and provides some energy when he is on the ice. I'm not sure that justifies keeping him as a 20, but if you don't have better players to plug in and you have the slot then I guess there is no harm in keeping him. I guess it also depends on if you have enough scoring and think you need a guy who can be physical. Also keep in mind that it's not like he plays with Honey, Delnov, Lipsbergs, Troock . . . He was playing with two rookies and I don't think that line was getting a lot of ice time throughout the games.
I thought Doty was playing with the top line in Medicine Hat for part of the year?
I saw the afternoon scrimmage yesterday and the morning scrimmage today. I thought Kolesar looked much better today than he did yesterday. Barzal is sure fun to watch, the puck just comes to him and he seems to always win the loose pucks, I'm looking forward to seeing him with the veterans. I thought Fabbro looked good in both games, having him and Barzal on the ice at the same time seemed unfair to the White team, it so obvious that they know where the other is going to be before they get there. I thought Kalder and Volcan were pretty good in both sessions I saw. I though Pederson was the best forward for the White team in the two sessions. Bear looked really good this morning, at one point keeping the puck away from both Barzal and Kolesar and he was really jumping up in the play and just seemed stout whenever there was contact. I though Flodell played pretty well in both sessions as well, he gave up a goal in each session, but the Blue team clearly was the better team on the ice for both of the sessions and were amassing many more shots.
I like Elliot and I think he must be a great impact in that locker room because the coaches clearly are very high on him. I don't think he fits as a 20 spot guy on a traditional roster, but who says this is going to be a traditional team? If there were a 20 year old goaltender out there, like Bartosak, who we could get and have a team that finished the season in third, maybe even beating Portland in 6 out of twelve games, then I would drop Elliot in a second. But that isn't happening. I don't see a great market for 20's that we could get right now without sacrificing a lot. I think he stays with the team until the trade deadline. If we look like a good team that just needs a little more offense then I think we go out and get an upgrade at the deadline, but at the moment I just don't know who we could bring in that would improve things a whole lot considering these young rookies need ice time and protection.
Plus, though nobody seems to agree with me, I think Elliot is a pretty good defensive offensman.
As far the the "Goon" thing goes, Elliot is not a goon. I have never seen him lay a dirty hit that was intentional. He plays with dignity and he gets respect around the league.
I followed through with Cloud now
143 PM, 13 fights (65 PM). And one dandy fight where he got a rough, fight, misconduct, and 3rd man in.
October 12, 2008, 2-1 loss to Chilliwack
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 6:46 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - CWK R. McNaught, 6:46 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
November 1, 2008, 5-4 loss to Tri
1 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:42 - Roughing, 2 min (PP)
1 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:42 - Instigator, 2 min (PP)
1 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:42 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:42 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
1 - T.C T. Schmidt, 16:42 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
November 4, 2008, 8-2 win over Edmonton
3 - EDM J. Pearson, 1:03 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 1:03 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
November 14, 2008, 5-3 win over Regina
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 17:07 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - REG G. Mitchell, 17:07 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
November 22, 2008, 6-2 win over Portland
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 15:32 - Roughing, 2 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 15:32 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 15:32 - Game-Third Man In, 20 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 15:32 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
2 - POR T. Jordan, 15:32 - Roughing, 2 min
2 - POR T. Jordan, 15:32 - Roughing, 2 min
2 - POR T. Jordan, 15:32 - Game-Third Man In, 20 min
2 - POR T. Jordan, 15:32 - Game Misconduct, 10 min
December 27, 2008, 5-1 loss to Portland
3 - POR B. Ponich, 0:13 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 0:13 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 4, 2009, 3-1 win over Kamloops
2 - KAM B. Underwood, 5:04 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 5:04 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 17, 2009, 3-1 win over Everett
1 - EVT G. Potuer, 0:07 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
1 - SEA C. Cloud, 0:07 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
January 28, 2009, 3-2 loss to Kamloops
3 - SEA D. LeBlanc, 9:20 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - KAM J. Caron, 9:20 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
February 7, 2009, 7-1 loss to Tri
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 10:59 - Instigator, 2 min (PP)
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 10:59 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 10:59 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
3 - T.C S. Asuchak, 10:59 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
February 28, 2009, 5-3 win over Portland
2 - POR S. Schneider, 17:14 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 17:14 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
March 6, 2009, 4-2 loss to Tri
3 - T.C L. Werbowski, 9:10 - Roughing, 2 min
3 - T.C L. Werbowski, 9:10 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
3 - SEA C. Cloud, 9:10 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
March 14, 2009, 4-3 2in over Portland
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:09 - Instigator, 2 min (PP)
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:09 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
2 - SEA C. Cloud, 16:09 - 10-Minute Misconduct, 10 min
2 - POR R. Kerr, 16:09 - Major-Fighting, 5 min
I do enjoy this type off discussion. It is a nice change from the "other" type of discussion tbirds fan have in the past few years.
Here is my opinion in a nutshell:
all theses guys we named (add Kambeitz) all had one thing in common that Elliot did not have last year (and most likely will not have this year)
a regular shift
I training camp starts and pre-season games are played and he is still on the 4th line, let him go. I don't care if he gets the coaches coffee, get their car washed or does all the right little things. I would much rather have a 16 or 17 y/o on the 4th line to get experience than have a 20 trying to get a fight in here and there.
For the same reason I am glad they cut Daniel Wray (who is attending the sas blades camp) I feel like if you are 18y/o and over and your ice time is on the 4th line...you are on borrowed time with a team.
Again, if camp start and he is lined up with someone with a lot of upside and manages to use his body to create some space for his linemates and be useful.....lets keep him....but somehow ...I doubt it will happend.
I completely agree that if he is a 4th line guy, no chance, cut him loose now and give him a chance to find a new place.
Now, the news I will give you guys about him. He has signed and ATO with the Vancouver Canucks, and will be leaving for the Penticton NHL young guys tournament over labor day. So we will probably not get to see him in any preseason until the last one against Everett.
I personally think if he sticks, his roll is not on a scoring line, but on a 3rd line, go out and provide energy, hit the heck out of guys, get off the ice and turn it over to the offense.
The thing with Cloud and LeBlanc is they shared a line with Luke. They were his protection while he zoomed around every corner of the ice.
I personally have a hard time believing that Barzal will share a line with Elliott.
Calling Elliot a goon is like calling Smokey the bear a grizzly.
What's with all the pot shots people? We are in camp, these kids come to play for our entertainment and already you are cutting them up into little pieces and throwing them willy nilly away. How many times have we seen a guy come back to camp who finally gets it? Schappert and Dillon would be the two lately who come to mind. Both had incredible 20 year old seasons. Maybe we can wait until preseason is over before throwing a kid in the compost pile?
I don't think anyone is cutting him apart and throwing him to compost. I really think it was more a discussion of what the team needs and does he fit that role. I think all the comments agree that he's not a goon. It will be interesting to see how camp goes for all the players. There's a lot of talent there old and new and it's going to make for a great season regardless.
I think that the attitude of the 8:14 post is well intended and posted by someone who has a positive opinion by the team, but I think that the overall message is a tired one. If you turn on sports radio at any time during Mariners spring training or Seahawks sessions at the V-Mac, you will hear no shortage of fans who are asking the good questions. Breaking the roster down on a player-by-player basis and giving their opinions on who deserves a roster spot. T-Birds fans should be able to do the same, and this is the forum to give our opinion.. I don't think any player on this team gets scrutinized any more or less than any other athlete in Seattle.
'Goon' may be a strong word. But the team basically gave away a potential 20 goal scorer in Sanvido and kept a guy who tallied 4 points in 63 games. Take a survey on the concourse of fans' favorite Mitch Elliot moment, and most of them will refer to the time he beat the crap out of somebody. To expect fans not to talk about this stuff is pure insanity.
10:55 - well said
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